Thriving as Your True Self: Advice on Self-Discovery and Embracing Neurodivergence with Natasha Nurse

Dr. Christine Li [00:00:00]:
Welcome back to the Make Time for Success podcast. This is episode number 243. I have the distinct pleasure of welcoming back my friend and colleague, Natasha Nurse to this show and to this episode. She is a true neurodivergent leader and innovator and she's the Managing Director of Partnerships and Business Operations at MRM Education. She has long been known for her vibrant authenticity and personality and her powerful storytelling abilities. She's just very insightful and knowledgeable and she just gets community. That's my own impression of her over the years. And in this conversation, you're going to hear her tell the story of her recent journey of being diagnosed and discovering her ADHD and autism.

Dr. Christine Li [00:00:58]:
So her neurodivergence and how that experience of discovering the neurodivergence has transformed her not only in terms of her understanding of herself, but also her mission as a leader and a parent. You're going to hear how she understands and embraces the challenges and superpowers of being autistic and having ADHD and the importance of honoring your authentic self. And she also shares her work at MRM Education, where she is working to help schools, educators and families create more equitable and impactful education systems. She is really such an amazing woman, a great leader. She's helped me personally and professionally over the years and I just can't wait for you to hear this episode now.

Dr. Christine Li [00:02:00]:
Hi, I'm Dr. Christine Li and I'm a psychologist and a procrastination coach. I've helped thousands of people move past procrastination and overwhelm so they could begin working to their potential. In this podcast, you're going to learn powerful strategies for getting your mind, body and energy to work together so that you can focus on what's really important and accomplish the goals you want to achieve. When you start living within your full power, you're going to see how being productive can be easy and how you can create success on demand. Welcome to the Make Time for Success podcast.

Dr. Christine Li [00:02:43]:
Hi my friends. Today I have my friend on for the podcast. Her name is Natasha Nurse, and we last probably connected on this podcast about five years ago, maybe four and a half years ago, for episode number 19. And the title for that was the Power of Being you. And I just want to do a quick intro for Natasha and she is like my idol for being you, for being vibrant, for knowing your story. And I just wanted to have her back on the show because it had been so long since we had connected and I just wanted to hear what she was up to. And I knew she had many lessons to share with us. So we're going to talk about some different issues today, including being diagnosed as neurodivergent later on in life.

Dr. Christine Li [00:03:42]:
So as a neurodivergent trailblazer, I wanna welcome Natasha back to the show.

Natasha Nurse [00:03:49]:
Thank you. I'm so excited for us to chat. It has been so long. But I know we will have a lot of fun and everyone listening and watching will do.

Dr. Christine Li [00:03:56]:
Yes, yes, absolutely. So do me a favor and let me know where you wanna start with this conversation. I know we're gonna talk about your experience and also how your career has transitioned, the transitions you've made over the past few years as well. So start us off.

Natasha Nurse [00:04:16]:
Yeah. So I guess the best place to start would be the. The origins of figuring out I was neurodivergent. So when you. They say when you met one neurodivergent person, you've met one neurodivergent person. Because each and every one of us, it's a. You know, for folks who are autistic like me, with adhd, you know, you're on a spectrum. And with autism, there's different levels.

Natasha Nurse [00:04:39]:
I'm level one, and with adhd, there's three levels. I'm the combined, which is a little bit of the hyper and a little bit of the take it easy type of approach. And when I became a mother, I, as you know, fell completely in love with my son. He is my whole heart and human manifestation. The best things that exist of me are inside of him. So he is my star. He is magic. And I tell him that every day.

Natasha Nurse [00:05:06]:
And what was interesting is, you know, motherhood is hard, but it seemed extra hard when he would cry, when he would be upset, as babies normally do. But I was really struggling, like, really struggling in that. Like, his crying noise would really send me to dark places. I would feel like, to be 100% honest, like, I. Like, I didn't even want to live. Like, I couldn't really take his pain. And that seemed odd to have such a strong and such a dark reaction to that. And then the other thing I was starting to feel is every time I'm with him, you know, and I don't know if folks remember, like, the pop rock candies where it, like, sizzles in your mouth.

Natasha Nurse [00:05:50]:
Like, I feel very alive and very vibrant with my son, and. And then I was starting to realize I feel very dead with everything and everyone else, really pretty much. And that also seemed really troubling. Like, why do I feel really connected and present? And alive with this person. And it feels like the rest of my life is not an act, but it definitely feels like I have to exert or create a Persona and show up in those scenarios in a way that I don't feel that with my son. So that also seemed peculiar. And thankfully, you know, I have people in my tribe specifically shout out to my son's godfather who was like, you should like get tested or, you know, talk to someone about this. Right? And that led to therapy, which then led to my therapist at the time being like, these things, this rigidity, these, you know, kind of obsessive thought patterns, this, you know, I can only do this type of approach to life, all seem to be reminiscent of folks who are autistic.

Natasha Nurse [00:06:50]:
And so when I went through and got tested, you know, cha ching, all the boxes are checked. And it was interesting being 37 years old, finding this out, because life, right, has been autistic and ADHD since the beginning. But to not know that and to struggle in the ways that I've struggled privately and growing up. Caribbean parents are from Jamaica Caribbean culture. Very much about productivity, efficiency, do something or fall off the planet. Definitely no space for feelings. Definitely no space for awkwardness or disconnection. No one cares.

Natasha Nurse [00:07:25]:
What are you doing? What's the homework? Did you get the A? What's wrong with you? Right, like, so there was a lot of suppression of who my authentic self was. And I guess motherhood and figuring out this diagnosis has led to, ironically, a deeper and a more connected version of myself.

Dr. Christine Li [00:07:43]:
Okay, so thank you for sharing the backstory. When you say your authentic self was suppressed, what do you think? What have you figured out was in there and what do you know?

Natasha Nurse [00:07:57]:
Yeah, so I. It's so interesting because there's so many different representations of autistic people in media that I think are tropes, you know, but some of the tropes are things that I think people think is like, autistic means or like you have no emotions or you're unemotional. And in fact, it's actually quite the opposite. Opposite. Autistic people feel very deeply, very, very deeply. And I have always felt things very, very deeply. I just hadn't had the emotional or, or even feeling like the space to be able to express it. So girls who typically are diagnosed with autism have high masking ability because society really doesn't invite us to like drop on the floor and throw a tantrum and get upset.

Natasha Nurse [00:08:38]:
Like, we're supposed to be nurturers. We're supposed to be problem solvers. And figure it out, not, you know, act up if we need to. And in the ways that, like, how I see if my son is, you know, having a challenging moment, I very much feel very connected to him because I. I share a lot of the same triggers as him. I share a lot of the. The same pain points and things that really upset me, except I, you know, at that age, would have kept that to myself or gone into a corner. And, you know, thankfully, my son can grow up, you know, being his authentic self and being able to rage as he needs to rage and have a challenging moment.

Natasha Nurse [00:09:16]:
And. And I think that what I've realized is that, like, it's okay to feel and it's okay to even to ask for space for my feelings. It's okay to not be okay with something. It's okay to be drained and not have to push through and be my most productive self, but really to care for myself and in a way that I hadn't done before because I didn't know what was going on. I knew something felt wrong or challenged. I just hit it and just kind of moved and walked over it, and now I step right through it, and I just. I feel my feels. I have emotion.

Natasha Nurse [00:09:51]:
Posters throughout my house. Like, we are all about the feelings here for my son and for myself. Because, you know, you can't not fix it, but you can't even address it if you can't name it. And so I'm all about naming it and experiencing it and trying to honor it in a way that I hadn't before.

Dr. Christine Li [00:10:08]:
Okay, this is fascinating. And I'm wondering, what have you experienced about the world as a result of this reconnection in a deeper way with your reactions, with what you sense about people and things and places and events that happen?

Natasha Nurse [00:10:29]:
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. It's a great question. So once I got diagnosed, that. That's a huge, like, aha. Moment for me. But it was also like, now what? Like, what does this mean? Like, where. Where do I go to? Again, processes, because not a lot of safety, right, with family.

Natasha Nurse [00:10:45]:
And I don't necessarily have a lot of friends for the people who do rock with me, they're like, let's do this. Cool. That's you. Do you. Right. Like, so definitely get the support there. But again, unless they have that shared narrative, not necessarily additional support, they can be a listening ear. But I was now creating community with my tribe because I needed to connect with other neurospicy people because I wanted to know, well, okay, well, how has your autism shown up in your life and what are your triggers and what are your preferences and, and what are hacks that work for you? So I started looking into peer support groups.

Natasha Nurse [00:11:17]:
So shout out to ShareWell and now I like host on there and I, you know, I have neuro spicy conversations. I have conversations around productivity. Should totally join. You would love it. I have conversations around, you know, worrying and things like that. And it was really just like soul satisfying because you know, there's something really interesting when you have, when you get into a room with other neurodivergent people because it feels like generally when in a room of like neurotypical people, like I'm holding my breath, right? Like I can show up and I can do the things and most people, unless I told you I was neurodivergent, you may not know that. Right. It's an, it's akin to an invisible kind of situation, but it's very visible to me, just invisible to the world.

Natasha Nurse [00:12:02]:
But with others who self identify, I can like take a breath. I can just kind of not feel like I have to mask. I cannot if I need to, you know, start turning because it's hard to just sit, sit still, you know, struggling with eye contact stuff, fidgeting with things like these are things that you don't feel like you have to hide when you're amongst people who also have a similar lived experience to you.

Dr. Christine Li [00:12:26]:
Okay, so then what is your now perspective on how society treats and gives space or doesn't give space to people who are neurodivergent? I'm thinking in the workplace just at the moment, but in terms of the things that you were just describing, fidgeting, you know, maybe having different patterns of eye contact, these kinds of things. Because this covers a lot of, a lot of different people, right?

Natasha Nurse [00:12:57]:
And yeah, oh yeah, because you're talking autism, you're talking dyslexia. So many Tourette's, right? Like so many different things. But I would say what I have learned and if you look at some of the stats, it's really interesting. I'm, I'm working on a project for this actually that I look forward to releasing down the road that a lot of folks like even in my own career I've noticed that I'm very much a stat that like it seems like neurodivergent people really have a hard time like being in their career because there gets to a point where it either communication breakdowns or how we work breakdowns that because when you, when you show up in a neurotypical environment, people have an ableist and a neurotypical expectation upon you. But if you're not neurotypical, you can't meet those expectations. Expectations like it's, you're like, not set up to fail. But, you know, unless the lens is changed, then professional and acceptance and accommodations look different. And so, you know, and then that requires, you know, do you put yourself in that position to self identify? And then are, is this an employer that actually does care about inclusion? God forbid, diversity, Right.

Natasha Nurse [00:14:04]:
And like, what does that mean in their culture? Because you can put it on a website, you can say it all you want, but unless you're providing the resources, unless you're providing the support, unless you're making healthy, safe spaces for people to talk about, it doesn't work. You invite people to the party, but if you don't have accommodations for those at the party, they leave or they are forced to leave, or they don't feel comfortable there. And in my career, you know, I've, I've landed in an organization where like now my neurodivergent self, I need to bring it to work because that's what I'm doing as managing director at MRM Education. We do tutoring and we do executive functioning coaching. And a lot of my work is reaching out to orgs that service people that look and think and feel like me. And so there's a level of gratification that I haven't had before in my career. And also I, you know, my boss, you know, when I interviewed, he welcomed the conversation because I brought it forth. Because I said, like, now I was at a point in my career where it's like, I'm tired of hiding, I'm tired of not being me.

Natasha Nurse [00:15:07]:
Right? Like, because I, I'm neurodivergent whether people know it or not. Right. And I feel it all the time. So at what point in my life am I now going to bring that to the party? When I'm, when am I going to bring that to the table of conversation? Whether you accept it, not accept it, I don't control it. But I, I know that if I don't step into this and if I don't put this at the forefront, I'm always going to feel like this is something that I'm not honoring. And I'm, I'm just, I'm too old and I'm too tired and. And the other thing is that for me, at least, how I view parenting is the greatest gift that I can ever give my son is authenticity. And it's not what I say it is what I do.

Natasha Nurse [00:15:46]:
It is how I show up. Because I can tell him, I can say, kj, be authentic, be yourself. But if I don't walk into spaces doing that in front of him and behind him, right. He. He's never going to see or feel that that is true and that, you know, I need him to know that. And I need him to know that that's the legacy I'm building so that he can then walk into that for himself and go as far and wide as he wants that to be.

Dr. Christine Li [00:16:10]:
That's beautiful. Yes. And I think that the environment is so important and having information be available is also so important. Natasha and I reconnected because I saw one of her social media posts, and Natasha has always been really wonderful. I think she. Before I was a podcaster, I got onto her podcast and saw what she was doing with her husband. And I think you speak about the neurodivergence in that social post. So that's why I decided to reconnect, because I didn't know that.

Dr. Christine Li [00:16:48]:
That this was something that was happening for her, you know. So I think there are lots of different sources of information these days as well. But just before we pressed record, you also said that the whole experience for black women has been a little bit different. Could you talk a little bit about that?

Natasha Nurse [00:17:08]:
Yeah, absolutely. So what I've been seeing that's really been interesting is that, you know, a women typically in the, you know, the science of like, again, so some people are like, ooh, autism, is it. Is it like a fad? Is it new? No, it is not new, nor is it a fad. People have been autistic for many, many moons right now. Has the science caught up? No, not necessarily. Right. And when folks were being diagnosed, women typically actually even weren't thought that we could be autistic, which is really sexist and really odd. But thankfully, again, the science is doing the thing.

Natasha Nurse [00:17:45]:
And what I would say is that I've. What I've seen on social, that's been really interesting. There's a lot more black women coming out and being later stage diagnosed. Like me saying, hey, I'm in my 30s, I'm in my 40s, I'm in my 50s and getting diagnosed because again, you know, talk about not having space. And black women are one, one of the most challenged groups to be in our society because we're expected to hold the bags, not complain about it, and, and hold more and hold space for other people and hold bags for other people and not be credited. And also, you know, Be labeled angry or frustrated or, you know, fill in the blank and never be given grace. Right. Which has always been really challenging.

Natasha Nurse [00:18:24]:
And so, you know, you know, if my parents had the information, would my life have been different? I think culturally, again, it works for you and against you. Sometimes I think West Indian culture, it would have been like, okay and like, move on. Like, I don't think it would have necessarily changed, but my existence. But I'm grateful that I have found out because I can now. Yeah, Like, I can read the books, I can listen to the podcasts, I can join groups. I can continually learn and understand myself more because it's a journey like anything else in life. And you know, as a parent being autistic and then parenting an autistic child. Right.

Natasha Nurse [00:19:02]:
Like, it's, there's double fun there, layers of complexity, which is interesting. But I would say I'm grateful for it because I really do feel no more connected to another person than my son. And so, you know, there's, you know, it's like, I don't know if you've ever heard the phrase, like, real, recognize real, you know, like, I feel like there's such a beautiful kinship and understanding and tethering to him, and I'm excited to, to explore that as he gets older and, and help, you know, provide whatever context I have because again, the things that trigger me are similar to him. But he's four. He's, you know, many, many moon moons, God willing to live and evolve and we'll see, you know, we'll see, but we can, we, we can learn. I think what I would love to see in society is just again, continued positive, safe spaces for people to identify and it not be used against them for people to identify and develop partnership and connection through it. And then also to, to see what they can do. You know, I've met people who've started businesses that are specifically in alignment with their neurodivergence, which is really exciting.

Natasha Nurse [00:20:04]:
And it's been easier for them to keep their job because it's their own. It's their, them forming their job. Right. Having flexibility in how you work, being able to get the accommodation, whether it's, you know, noise canceling headphones or, you know, walking desk or, you know, it's, it's, it's about designing and curating workspaces for the employee, not expecting the employee to just figure out a way to make it work in the workspace. Right. That the, you know, a lot of employers fail to realize that it's a relationship, a working relationship. So you need to figure out what you need to bring as the employer to help the employee and the employee does the same. But it's the evolving relationship.

Natasha Nurse [00:20:44]:
And until that becomes standardized, at least in Western culture, we're going to continue to have challenges in the workplace.

Dr. Christine Li [00:20:51]:
Yeah, and I'm thinking about what you said about real recognized as real, because I had not heard of that phrase before.

Natasha Nurse [00:21:00]:
Oh, okay, cool.

Dr. Christine Li [00:21:03]:
But I, I like that. And I'm thinking about how your own experience, how your experience of seeing yourself has changed it off that statement. I don't know if that makes sense as a question, but yeah, you know, like what you're seeing about yourself in a more real way, like because of the diagnosis, because you, your learning and connecting with people and getting information and advocating.

Natasha Nurse [00:21:33]:
Yeah, absolutely. I would say that, you know, I have struggled with like self esteem growing up. I was bullied. I was, you know, not necessarily in most diverse schools that I attended. And so feeling good enough has been hard. There are studies that show people with autism or ADHD suffer with more depression and self esteem issues and things like that. And so I would say being able to acknowledge and see the beauty of my son and know that like, like the parts of him that are parts of me, like if he's beautiful, that means I'm beautiful too, right? And his challenges, you know, I can make grace for him. So I, it gives me permission to make grace for myself because I haven't necessarily grown up with a lot of that.

Natasha Nurse [00:22:17]:
So that was hard for me to like, failure was really hard. Culturally, failure is really hard because in our society, at least western society, it seems like it's, you know, game over as a black person. But it may not necessarily be that way, but that's what it feels like. And you know, I can see the greatness and the glory of who I am as a person through being a parent, but then also acknowledging like. And I, I have talks around this, around my neurodivergence being a superpower, right? Because I, as you say, right, like if you look at my LinkedIn profile, this is a profile of 27 people, right? Like it's like, wait a minute, how, wait, how are all these concurrent? Right? I can do a lot, right? I can hyper focus. I am hella creative. I am innovative. I love problem solving.

Natasha Nurse [00:23:04]:
I love innovative problem solving. Ironically, even though connection to people and understanding people I don't think is ever something I'm going to fully understand. Because again, as an autistic person, like, you know, I say what I mean, I mean what I say and I, if I say something, I'm honestly thinking that. But you know, we live in a world where people say something but they do something different or they say something to like to. With a specific intention, separate and apart from what they feel. And that like does not compute in my mind. Like straight shooter, always have, it always will be. And that's where I disconnect from people because I don't understand that.

Natasha Nurse [00:23:39]:
But you know, I can, I can. You know, for people who appreciate honesty and transparency, they rock with me, you know, and so I'm, I'm trying to learn to like fall in love with the parts of me because of my nerd average is not despite of it. And then helping that I'm able to join communities that help enforce that. Right. And then that and then helping to do more, have more conversations, especially in peer support groups where I'm helping other people also see their neurodivergence as beautiful, as wonderful as their superpower as an opportunity. Right. Not. Not something to, to see as a deficiency.

Dr. Christine Li [00:24:16]:
Yeah. As you're talking, I'm thinking about the importance of having peace inside. Just, you know, whatever, whatever context you're in, whatever age you are, whatever culture you're from, to be able to figure out how to have a peace within yourself is just all about all the other things it will get you all the other things. Right. Love, connection, performance, all the other things that the cultures want of us.

Natasha Nurse [00:24:45]:
Yeah.

Dr. Christine Li [00:24:46]:
And you're such a beautiful woman, Natasha. So. And I'm thinking how lucky KJ is and how lucky you have been to have kj. He's a lovely, lovely young man. He's four. So I'll say like a lovely young son. Thank you. Could you give us a closer description of MRM Education, the agency that you work for currently?

Natasha Nurse [00:25:11]:
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So tutoring elite tutoring college experts. We work across the United States and internationally. We offer tutoring one on one support college prep. We work with neurodivergent folks and neurotypical K through 12 executive functioning support. And you know what I find gratifying is I know that it's, you know, it's an organization that dedicated to providing excellent service with highly paid educators and tutors and educational consultants designed to work to, to help meet the kid where the kid is at. Right. And we're really like, I love that because it feels very much like with a world that really feels like they're always trying to make you adopt and mold to something else, we're doing the opposite.

Natasha Nurse [00:25:58]:
We're saying, hey, you come to us as you are and, and we're going to help show you how to think in a way, how your brain works. Right. Like, let's meet you where you're at because that's the only way that you're going to retain the skills and the learnings and the understanding as to how to problem solve and how to address whatever academic or executive functioning challenge you're dealing with in a way that makes sense for you. So it's really one to one type of service. You know, folks, if they're interested in talking to me about MRM education on a deeper level, you know, I do a lot of the partnership stuff. So I have tutored before. I've. And all the jobs through mrm.

Natasha Nurse [00:26:36]:
I'm not doing the tutoring. You're. If you're talking to me, you're talking to me about partnerships. So if you're an educator, you're at a school district, you're in a college, holler at your girl. I here for the partnerships, but essentially creating spaces that help educate, that help inform and also uplift and empower. Right. Which is. That's what I like.

Natasha Nurse [00:26:56]:
It's like a great fit because those are the things that I've done. I've taught, I've been a professor, I've done all the things. And so now in a space of doing partnership, engagement and development and definitely honing in on the neurodivergent community feels personally and professionally gratifying.

Dr. Christine Li [00:27:14]:
Yes. Wonderful. I mean, you mentioned challenges, but I'm thinking that with the correct support and tutoring that you're finding people unleashing their ghosts in ways that they maybe weren't able to or weren't allowed to or had to mask it or didn't think it was appropriate.

Natasha Nurse [00:27:31]:
Oh yeah.

Dr. Christine Li [00:27:32]:
As well. So, yeah. Beautiful.

Natasha Nurse [00:27:34]:
Oh, yeah. And especially with like, neurodivergent folks, parents don't even realize, like sometimes kids want to talk about this, like, special project that they've been obsessed about for seven years and they're like, don't put that on your essay. And it's like, that's the essay, that's the topic. That's what's going to get you into the mit. Like, yes, let's go with that. And so we help, we help families understand how you should not hide from that and cower from that, but bring that forth because that's who you are. There's no point to hide it. It's about presenting your best self and your neurodivergent self is your best self.

Natasha Nurse [00:28:04]:
Right. It's not something to hide from.

Natasha Nurse [00:28:06]:
Yes. Thank you. Thank you. I think that's a good sentence to end on. We have the website for MRM education. It's M like Mary, R like Ralph, M like Mary. Education.com and Natasha, thank you so much for thriving, for being the woman that you are for coming back on my show. And I'm so glad we have reconnected.

Dr. Christine Li [00:28:34]:
So thank you for what you've shared with us today.

Natasha Nurse [00:28:36]:
Thank you. Such an honor to be here. Have a wonderful day.

Dr. Christine Li [00:28:39]:
You too. Oh my God. So glad to see you again.

Dr. Christine Li [00:28:43]:
Thank you for listening to this episode of the Make Time for Success podcast. If you enjoyed what you've heard, you can subscribe to make sure you get notified of upcoming episodes. You can also Visit our website, maketimeforsuccesspodcast.com for past episodes, show notes, and all the resources we mention on the show. Feel free to connect with me over on Instagram too. You can find me there under the name Procrastination Coach. Send me a DM and let me know what your thoughts are about the episodes you've been listening to. And let me know any topics that you might like me to talk about on the show. I'd love to hear all about how you're making time for Success.

Dr. Christine Li [00:29:24]:
Talk to you soon.