Aug. 18, 2022

What to Do When You're Afraid To Start: A Conversation about Anxiety with Dr. Christine Li and Helen Kho

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You may remember my guest from last week’s episode, Helen Kho. She is back this week for episode 88 and we reversed roles. Helen took the interview chair and we selected the topic of anxiety, in particular anxiety about doing new things and how trying out something new before you really feel ready to do it may be the very best way to cope with your anxiety. Inside this conversation, you're also going to hear about ways to manage your worries and apprehension when it appears so you can function more easily and with more success.

Helen helps people to discover their passion and to make choices in their career and business to follow their heart. She has a master's degree in change management but decided after 15 years of optimizing company processes and implementing new systems to transition into a career as a coach and started her own business. Since then, she has helped many professionals to discover what they truly desire and help them translate that to a new career. She's a trained life coach and NLP practitioner and is passionate about personal development and helping others to make empowered choices.

• [4:33] Dr. Li explains how anxiety manifests for her and says “it's in my mind more than in my body…”
• [9:42] “The decision that I made was to lean into kindness towards myself, rather than self abuse…”
• [13:30] “We all have a part of ourselves that knows how to achieve, knows how to be calm, knows that we have enough to start…”
• [37:57] “So, you get used to having a watch or being aware of how quickly time is passing, and your rate of work or your rate of functioning, how quickly can you get something done…”

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K.C. Davis' book How to Keep House While Drowning:


Christine Li  0:01  
Welcome back to the Make Time for Success podcast. This is episode 88. I've had the great fortune of being able to welcome so many wonderful guests to this podcast. From the very start of this podcast. Some of the guests are extra lovely in that they invite me to have them switch roles with them so that they could serve as the interviewer on this show. And Helen Kho, my guest on Episode 87, the one just before this one has offered to do this with me for today's episode. Helen is a business, career and life coach who operates from the Netherlands and she is brilliant. And in this episode, we decided to just keep an open mind about how it would flow and we approach it with open hearts as well. And we selected the topic of anxiety, in particular anxiety about doing new things as the subject and we just trusted with each other that this choice would lead to a great conversation and I think you're going to agree with me that it did. Inside this conversation, you're going to hear about ways to manage your anxiety when it appears, and also how to have a better kind of relationship to your anxiety and to yourself so that you can function more easily and with more success, and you're going to hear how trying out new things before you really feel ready to do them may be the very best way to cope with your anxiety of doing something new. You will hear how sensitive and insightful Helen is as an interviewer and as a coach inside this episode as well. Please listen to episode 87 on how not to feel stuck in your career. After you've finished with this one. If you haven't listened to Episode 87 yet, let's go listen to this episode now.

Hi, I'm Dr. Christine Li, and I'm a psychologist and a procrastination coach. I've helped 1000s of people move past procrastination and overwhelm so they can begin working to their potential. In this podcast, you're going to learn about powerful strategies for getting your mind, body and energy to work together so that you can focus on what's really important and accomplish the goals you want to achieve. When you start living within your full power, you're going to see how being productive can be easy, and how you can create success on demand. 

Welcome to the Make Time for Success podcast. Hello, dear listener, it is Dr. Christine Li and I am joined today with my good friend and colleague Helen Kho. You heard us have a conversation in Episode 87. And this is episode 88. And the reason we're doing this second episode is because of a little conversation that she and I had when we were recording the last one. She was mentioning that she was interested in starting a podcast. And I was telling her that I had to record a solo episode and we decided to just do this little experiment give Helen, the experience of being the podcast host. And for me to enjoy another conversation with her and to bring up the topic of anxiety with you. Because anxiety can be infused in all the things that we do across the day, including recording solo episodes for a podcast. So Helen, I'm going to send the mic over to you over the Netherlands. And have you take it away I'm open and willing to talk about anything you want to today.

Helen Kho  4:01  
Yes, thank you, Christine. And thank you for giving me the opportunity to do this conversation with you and actually be kind of a host of your podcast actually.

Christine Li  4:13  
Well, thank you. Thank you. It's your time. It's your effort and energy. Thank you for doing this too.

Helen Kho  4:18  
Thank you. So so we're diving deeper into the topic of anxiety. And can you tell us a bit about which ways anxiety shows up for you in your daily life or in your business?

Christine Li  4:33  
Historically, anxiety for me shows up very frequently and more so infrequently lately, but very much in the pattern of procrastination, where I will circle around I will think about things I will do things that I'm not supposed to be doing. Not illegal things or anything like that, but things that are not the point I already items in my life. So those kinds of not great things. And I will keep myself in a state of flux. So not flow, but flux where I'm in between things and trying to get someplace but really feeling like I'm not making many advances. And I think that is my pattern way of experiencing anxiety. And for those of you who are listening, who are procrastinators, or who suffer or struggle with chronic anxiety, I think you know, what I mean, there's this feeling of tension, either in your brain or in your mind, or both. And oftentimes, for me, it's in my mind more than in my body, I can feel actually quite calm physically, and nobody will see it registered on my face or in how I'm moving. But my mind will be stuck and whirling around at the same time.

Helen Kho  5:59  
Hmm, that's interesting. And so you are very aware, like now you can talk about, you know, how you act when you are experiencing anxiety. But how aware are you in the moment itself, so while you're being distracted, and you know, doing other stuff, then the things that you wanted to do? Are you at the same time aware that you're doing that, that you're, you are actually avoiding to do the thing that you wanted to do?

Christine Li  6:28  
I think I am aware of all these things. At the same time, I just saw the movie, everything everywhere, all at once. And if any of you have seen this movie, it is a movie about how we're living multiple selves at the same time. And although this may not be multiple selves within me, I think we are able to be conscious of lots of different desires, states of mind goals at the same time. And that's why I think, by the way, cutting to the chase, that planning is so useful, because if you take one minute of planning ahead of time, and get your mind set on a single goal, or in a single direction, you no longer have to be flustered and influx, you can actually set your creative machine in the right direction. So I alternate between these two states of being in flux, and then saying to myself, Okay, Christine, it's time you're ready. Even if you're not ready, it's time to start planning. And planning doesn't have to be really rigid by the book by a schedule, it can just be an intention of the mind. And I just wanted to put that in there. Because sometimes people don't feel that they're good at planning, but I just want to encourage them, that any bit of direction can be a plus.

Helen Kho  7:56  
Hmm, that's a great tip. So if you use planning, to take action to take imperfect action, you know, whatever brings you takes you forward to reach your goals. What happens if resistance sometimes comes up like really, really strong. And resistance always tends to always find another way to stop you and get you off your track. So what do you do? What happens when you plan something? But then resistance just comes in? Even stronger? What is the pattern then? For you?

Christine Li  8:33  
What a fantastic question. I used to beat myself up mercilessly. That is my answer. I used to just feel like okay, I've sunk to a lower level. Okay. Why can't I stick to my plan? Okay, What time am I going to lose? Now? How much more time might I be? So it's stressed about time, self degradation, and energetically feeling like I've sunk even lower. And nowadays, I can say that. It's not that those things don't ever happen. But it's much more likely that I end up laughing at myself in a friendly way. So not in a mocking way, but just like, oh, wow, here I am resisting in a new way. How creative Am I that I can find yet another way to avoid this simple thing that I have on my plate. So that really is because of years of working on this issue for myself years of therapy. And the decision that I made, I don't know when to decide to lean into kindness towards myself, rather than self abuse and there was kind of a self abuse pattern in there that I was very comfortable with. A while ago that it really Lay was what I thought I needed to do to be a good person, I needed to beat myself up in order to move in order to shake myself out of resistance. And now I realized and teach that that's actually probably the least effective way to go. Because when we feel calm inside of our body, that is actually our highest form of readiness. I think I'm thinking maybe of Olympic athletes, but I'm sure they each have their own crafted approach to the starting line and being ready. But I think it's important to note that that's crafted, that's not random. It's not some random self attack that you put on yourself that you know that every instinct every thought, every feeling that you nurture inside yourself, is purposely directed for your goal. It's not directed towards attacking yourself, because that is actually procrastination. Anything that moves you away from your goal is technically procrastination.

Helen Kho  11:07  
Hmm, that's beautiful that you explain it in this way. I think a lot of people will recognize how they sometimes abuse themselves, like you said it being harsh on themselves shaming themselves for not doing the thing that they wanted to do. But that that is actually just blocking you and stopping you from taking imperfect action. And so the more kind approach is very helpful to get you in a state where you feel ready to take action. That's really beautiful. So I can, I can imagine that someone who's listening to that is wondering, like, Okay, I am I being harsh on myself, I know that I am. But what's the first step people can take to actually move away from that?

Christine Li  11:58  
I think Helen is ready for podcasts. She's getting hard at it. So they're not difficult. They're excellent. And also, I just feel that you're such a natural at this. But that's a tangent. And I just wanted to slip that in there. And I would say the first step that I would recommend is to experience the new environments, that kindness to yourself creates, when we're in a hostile environments. We are watching out for ourselves, we're feeling on alert, we're feeling like we have to get ourselves out of the danger that's present. That's what I am painting as the picture for when we're abusing ourselves, we're not really thinking. So clearly, we're thinking about how to escape. And when you are painting yourself, a picture of inner calmness, and an open pathway in front of you, then the first step is really to enjoy. What do I do with this? What do I do with this opportunity to activate your creative mind, your problem solving mind, you're okay, let's get to it. You're kind of purposeful mind. And we all have all of these, we have a part of us that is prone to maybe attacking ourselves, or maybe seeing things in the negative or in the hopeless direction. And then we all have a part of ourselves that knows how to achieve knows how to be calm knows that we have enough to start, okay, we may not even believe that we're gonna get to the finish line. But we know we have enough to the for the first five or 10 minutes. And sometimes that's all you need Helen and I did not know, we came to this recording studio, saying to each other, we have no idea what we want to do today. But look what's happening. We're co creating, it's fine. And it will be helpful to people. Once it started though, if we had both bailed, what would have happened, we would have felt like, maybe this was a missed opportunity. So grab that bag of opportunity that is in you in your heart and in your environment. You can create it for yourself.

Helen Kho  14:24  
Hmm, that's beautiful. So actually what you're saying, Christine, is that we need to practice being in that calm state being more kind to ourselves. And the more we practice that and the more aware we become of what the effect is on what we do afterwards. That is what is helping us to move forward instead of keeping ourselves you know, procrastinating on the things that we really want to get done.

Christine Li  14:55  
Yes, beautifully said that triggers a thought which is Is that I heard, I think in a guided meditation. So I will go to an app, it's called the Insight Timer app, I N si gh t. And I do a five or seven minute guided meditation, somebody else is leading me through the meditation as many mornings as I can. And I just scroll through and select one that's highly rated. And I press play. And one of them explained that when you're doing meditation, it's not just surrendering your mind. And it's not just listening to the words, it's actually moving your own experience from one level to the communal level. And I hope this is making sense to you, Helen and the listener, but that it is, you know, we've just arisen from sleep. And so we're in a sort of state that is maybe less connected to potential or possibility, or the world and other people around us. And meditation elevates our state, so that we're reconnected. And I just loved that description of what meditation does, because I feel it every morning, I feel that no matter how positively, I'm oriented, and how good I feel in the morning, and I don't always feel good in the morning, no matter how I feel, when I do this five or seven minute exercise, I feel better, I feel like I'm more capable, and stronger and more ready to go. So that also is an experience of getting used to that better feeling in your chest, that feeling of potential, and that we hold in ourselves, the ability to grasp it, we've all been trained away from knowing our full potential and being curious about it, and taking the steps all the time to make use of our time to experiment and fail and then get up again and fail again, we've just become very perfectionistic. And interested in external sources of approval. I'll share another thing that I heard yesterday, I was reading an audiobook, if you can read an audiobook, that's what I was doing. And the author so beautifully said, When did exercise become a chore? When did movement become all about being thin and shaping your body rather than the pleasure of being alive and being able to move and just done in all these random moments just because you wanted to? And I thought that book, or that element of the book was the most powerful piece of it. And it was a very powerful book, the book is called something like how to declutter when you're drowning, something like that. So it's by Casey Davis, I hope I'm getting all of that, right. I'll put that in the show notes. But it's either how to declutter while drowning, or how to keep home while drowning. So hopefully, our listeners can find that it's a wonderful book about getting over and done with your clutter.

Helen Kho  18:23  
That's great. But that's a great example of how important it is to feel good. And how that actually activates you to do the things that you want to do. Because it feels good. And that from a place of feeling good. It is it's easier, it feels better, it feels lighter to actually, you know, do the things that we want to do.

Christine Li  18:47  
Absolutely, absolutely 100%. And I think we all know that in our heart of hearts. And yet privately, some of us are keeping ourselves in a lower state than we need to. And so then that is the on ramp for procrastination. You're feeling not well, you're sensing the anxiety or you're expensing the newness of the experience that you're about to take on. And then guess what the next thought you have is, what's in the fridge? What else can I do? Can I do some decluttering instead of what I want to create in the world, and it's not that we shouldn't be attending to our homes when we can. It's that when we do it should be this is my time to tend to my home. And I think I just like to teach that when we have an intention. We want to stay with the intention. And so if you find yourself splitting off from that, train yourself that it's alright, that you are fine. That that was simply a distraction, and that we need to reorient back to the intention, your intuition always knows what you intended. You can think you've forgotten, you can think, Oh, it's too heavy for me to bear. But your intuition always knows what you were wanting to do. That's its role. Its role is to keep you safe and alive. But then next, it's to keep you satisfied. And to get you what you want. It doesn't have any intentions on its own except for survival. But it really is a machine to support you. So use that, because you've got all these tools inside of you that you might be suppressing, accidentally or unintentionally out of fear.

Helen Kho  20:49  
Yeah. And so when you started the introduction for this episode, you mentioned that you have some anxiety around doing your solo episodes. Can you tell us a bit about that?

Christine Li  21:02  
Sure. So the pattern I have for this podcast is that I do three interviews, and one solo episode. And that is my cyclical pattern. It was an accidental design, but it has worked beautifully for the podcast, and I love doing this podcast. That said, doing interviews for me is as easy and breezy as anyone could imagine. I love it, I feel like I get extra therapy from my beautiful guests like you, I get educated, I get to meet people on a deeper level or in a brand new way if they're strangers to me. And I just find the whole thing to be very fun, very simple, not time consuming, and easy to do. Solo episodes on the other hand, for me so far have been much more of a time involvement. Because I need to do the preparation or I so far have felt that I need to at least have my ideas in place. And so far, I've been approaching them with mostly a script, even the words that I need to say. And as you can imagine, that takes more time than pressing record and having a conversation with someone who's lovely. And therefore I think I've set myself up for feeling like, oh, it's time for me to do another solo. So in some ways, it may not be anxiety, it may be that I've set myself up for an experience of greater frustration or dread associated with something that overall I love to do, which is the podcast. And I also love to teach. So I would like to I think just straighten up my own approach so that it's less labor intensive, less time intensive and more fun for me.

Helen Kho  23:00  
Yeah. So you say that it's actually about that it's, it seems more labor intensive and time intensive. And that's the reason why you're maybe kind of, I don't know, are you procrastinating around solo episodes or not?

Christine Li  23:15  
I totally procrastinate.

Helen Kho  23:20  
And so that is one aspect, I guess, because right before we started our conversation, we were talking about how to do this episode. And then you said, let's keep this one on the shorter side. Because it's you know, with solo episodes, you just want to make it easier to listen to for your listeners. And it's like, why would that be easier than to keep it short? While the interviews can be longer when you interview someone else? So what do you think about that? Like, do you think that that is a way for you to? Is that resistance coming up for you, when you say, well, let's keep it shorter?

Christine Li  24:04  
I think that's your intuition kicking in knowing that there must be something up with Christine, for her to even say something like that, because it doesn't really make sense to you. And I can say for me flipping the script, it makes sense to me because of my anxiety about taking other people's time, about not having valuable enough things to share about it not having someone to bounce my ideas off of because that makes me feel more I'd call more at ease, I would say. And I would imagine there are a whole bunch of anxieties that I'm not even consciously aware of. So having the stage perhaps, having people see me as an authority, even all of these things are probably underlying this procrastination, and this reluctance and so far this thing that I haven't have worked through, but you're giving me the awareness that this is something I do need to alter that I can alter my on ramp towards the solo episodes, that I can take my time and not feel pressured to fit everything in into a short container or a quick container. And I think this is a great exercise for that, too.

Helen Kho  25:26  
And so what if you would not have anxiety at all around your solo episodes? What would that look like for you?

Christine Li  25:37  
I think actually, I thought about this. And the episodes would look even shorter, that they would be me hopping on, and doing a really quick lesson, and giving my teaching thoughts around it, why this is a lesson in the first place, what the examples are of it and ways to overcome the trouble spot. And that it would be very simple, be very focused, maybe they'd be 10 minutes long max. And I think that's what they would be like, and I'm noticing an anxiety, copping cropping up now that maybe people wouldn't think that was enough. So it was nudging me my body was nudging me that well, that's just, that's just so simple for you. It's so so maybe not sufficient for the lesson, or for your audience that maybe they actually do want a longer experience? Do you want to spend their time with your voice? And your thoughts? So maybe there's no way to answer this. But I think there is a way for me to have a lighter experience of doing them.

Helen Kho  26:46  
I think what it does show is how much you care about bringing value to your audience that that is so important to you that you worry about, you know, what is better? And is this good enough or not? And I think that's a very beautiful quality for someone like us, you know, wanting to help so many people with their anxieties and their procrastination. And yeah, thank you for that answer. That's beautiful.

Christine Li  27:11  
Thank you, I so appreciate your reflections and your, your calm feedback, and loving feedback. Because these are issues that are very personal. They're very prickly in some way. Because I think something that we may all know is that it can be difficult to share what we're nervous about. And even if they're silly things, sometimes when they're silly things that that makes it even harder to share our anxiety, right? We could say, Well, I'm afraid to do a TED talk, but most people would understand that. But if if I said, I'm afraid to do a solo episode, I'm not so sure that other people would really naturally connect with that that explanation needs to happen. And that will generate even more anxiety from within, because it's sharing. And sometimes we just have to do that in order to get the healing.

Helen Kho  28:10  
Yeah. So thank you so beautiful that you're you're sharing and willing to share your anxieties, the nervousness, the things that you don't know. And I think that's really, it's a great kind of example, for people that it's okay to feel that way that it's okay that it is coming up. And you know, when you want to do something, and you're feeling hesitation around that, that you're not the only one we all have that. And I think that's really beautiful that you can talk about this so openly. And, you know, just telling me before we start this conversation, yeah, yeah, just ask whatever this is, you know, it's okay to talk about that. And I really appreciate that. And I think a lot of people who listen to this are going to appreciate and recognize a lot in your, your stories and your examples and what I was wondering, like, what do you love about podcast, to listen to podcast? What do you really value from listening to great podcasts? What is it that you really like about it?

Christine Li  29:17  
I think that the podcast universe is my own free university. So it is such a big ocean. I was gonna say pool, but it's really more like an ocean of talent, of ideas of opinions of styles of delivering opinion, that it's incredible. It's kind of like the community brain. And of course, some of it is more art and creation. So it's also the community spirit. And I think Twitter is kind of like that to where it's like Twitter is a community voice and forum and podcasting is kind of like the ideas land, it's the, I want to connect with my audience. But people who I don't even know are in my audience, I want to connect with them too. So it really is like an ocean where we can all dip our toes in and be connected in this global space, and also be enriched by it that it only takes 1520 minutes for your entire day to be changed, because you listen to someone that you decided to spend some time with. So I really love the creative aspect, but also how freeing it is there no rules. You and I can get on here and talk about anxiety, there's no rules, but that there is an understanding that we're generating something with a purpose. And I love that as well. Because I, I like to do things with a purpose.

Helen Kho  30:51  
Yeah, that's really beautiful. What I really like, also, I think it's because of the work that we both do is to you kind of can get into people's heads when you listen to a podcast where people are really sharing about how they think about things, like being able to follow their thoughts, their train of thoughts, and how they got to a certain point and how they made certain decisions and certain choices. It's so valuable, it's just sometimes giving you insights in a way that you know, you wouldn't have if you didn't know how other people thought it's the same effect. As you know, when you have a conversation with someone and you can just ask and, and like you you are just you speaking from experience, and how you think and how you are aware of the thoughts that come up. Sometimes when you have resistance, the way that you share, it can be so helpful for people to recognize themselves in you and your stories and to come up maybe with ideas of how how to deal with that, because they have heard how you deal with it and how you are aware and bringing awareness to things that they maybe haven't even thought about.

Christine Li  32:08  
Yes, I think as you're alluding to, there's a huge value in not being alone. And finding support or finding a sounding board, finding a coach, finding a podcast, finding a place to work through whatever you've identified or felt as an anxiety, anxiety left to itself will take up your personal real estate, the real estate in your brain and your body and your in your schedule. So it's really time to get on it. If you feel like, you know, there's something that is holding you back and making your talent terrified of something you want to do. It's time to kind of unpack that this is our invitation to have our listeners kind of look at that stuff.

Helen Kho  32:54  
Yeah. So what if anxiety is doesn't play a role in your solo episodes? Would you do more solo episodes? Or? Or is the preparation different? What what's the difference?

Christine Li  33:09  
I think I might be moving towards a model of rotating one interview with one solo episode, because the solo episodes seem to get more downloads and more attention. And I think it is a nice vehicle for me to get my own thoughts and messaging out. So that is probably the goal for the short term. And we'll see how it goes. We'll see how my anxiety allows me to move forward. And we'll see what my intentions really are. If I want to commit to that, if I feel like that's appropriate for the show and the content and the audience, then I will definitely do that. Thank you. Thank you for giving me the vision of the environment that is anxiety free.

Helen Kho  33:54  
Yeah. Wow, that sounds beautiful. I think that's great. And especially because you already, you know, shown us how much you care about what people need from you actually how you can help them better. And if you already have seen that more of your solo episodes are being downloaded, then it's a I think that's like a great motivator to go to, you know, one episode with a guest and one solo that will be awesome.

Christine Li  34:24  
Well, interestingly, that also raises my anxiety. You know that? Well, now there's external indicators that this is something you should focus on, and that brings a pressure. But again, it's just kind of like, you know, what being in business being a podcaster includes being able or having to cope with pressure and external indicators. Yeah, so that's part of doing something that you want to build is that you're going to have to face what are the indicators? What are the feelings that come up, new things will come up and should come up if new things aren't coming up? What What are you doing? What's happening? Maybe it's stagnant. So you want to question if things are just a little too easy for yourself when you're wanting to build something. And if you haven't had to face anxiety, recently, because that may be an indicator that you're ready for more.

Helen Kho  35:17  
Mm hmm. So how did you notice that? You know, anxiety was coming up for you so fast? Because I just said, all anxiety is now coming up because we are talking about you know, what people need?

Christine Li  35:30  
Because anxiety is in my brain. It's just the familiar with Yeah, I think I felt it. But it's, it's also just kind of not necessarily physical, but energetically, I did feel it. Yeah.

Helen Kho  35:47  
Yeah, I think that's like, that's key. And a first step is awareness. Like, the more aware you are? Have you know, what's coming up for you? The bigger the chances that you can do something about it? If you don't know, then sometimes you can, it can feel as if you know, our thoughts, and our emotions are leading us through today. While we do have influence on how we think and how we feel.

Christine Li  36:13  
Yes, that's why the, there's such a value in creating a calm environment, internally, with meditation with practice with coaching with experience, is because then any blip that comes up, you know, yeah. And that that becomes an indicator then of, okay, you're reacting to something, how come? And it's interesting what we react to, some people are going to look at a shark in the water and be like, Oh, how beautiful and others are going to run? And it's just, we're all different that way. But we have to understand what each of these blips mean, for I think, are better functioning. Do we have to observe everything all the time? No, that's not what I mean. But when you have a goal, look at what's going on, what is the machine telling you that it doesn't want to function that is ready to go, that you need to fix the machine before you're ready to launch it? Observe?

Helen Kho  37:09  
Yeah, yeah. So you mentioned that the way you kind of procrastinate is by being distracted, and you're going to do other things than you had planned to do. Are there other ways that procrastination can come up without you even noticing? Maybe not for you, but maybe for someone else? What do you see with the people that you help?

Christine Li  37:30  
I think time is a great timekeeper, when you notice that the day has gotten away from you, or when you don't know how the day ended? So quickly, with so little done, I think time doesn't really lie. So, so get used to having a watch or being aware of how quickly time is passing, and your rate of work or your rate of functioning, how quickly can you get something done? Or how much time will it take? And then measure become kind of like a cook, or master chef of your time? How do you want it to flow? How do you want the rest periods to be? How many do you want across the day? How many do you need? Have you been forgetting those all together. So you want to not have time escape you that tends to be, for me a good regulator of am I not seeing something that I need to see. And also, I'm a big fan of pen and paper, get your things on pen and paper, and even write how you want them to go. It's not just oh, pick up the bananas, it is pick up the bananas while feeling this way or on your way to this, you know, kind of write out the script of the day. And you'll find I think that it goes much more easily. Because your brain already has the cue of how you want things to go. And that's what we're doing all the time. We're basically queuing up our body and brain to support us again. So the more planning we do, the easier things will get.

Helen Kho  39:18  
Yeah, so you actually you write it out in a way that you can almost see it like a movie about how you want your day to go.

Christine Li  39:27  
Correct. Correct.

Helen Kho  39:28  
That's beautiful. That's a great tip, actually. Thank you. So is there anything that you want to add? In addition to what you've already shared? tips about you know what to do when you procrastinate on the things that you want to do?

Christine Li  39:45  
Well, I think I'm gonna flip the script on you here because I think I've shared a few things I would love to hear if you don't mind. What you have gotten out of interviewing and being the host and using Just your, your spirit to conduct this episode. What was it like for you?

Helen Kho  40:07  
It almost feels easy to do. Because it's actually a conversation and I am a natural. Honey, say I'm curious to know more about you and how you do things, how you think about things. And I wasn't thinking about that, you know, this is a podcast episode that we need to do so and so like in this in this way, but I was just like in the moment and talking with you. So I really enjoyed doing this. I can imagine myself doing that I've been thinking about it since I think 2018 or 19 was the first time that I thought, Wow, a podcast would be great. But I have the same thinking around it as you do in a way that it's a lot of work. I'm doing a lot already. I am someone who I like to do a lot of different things. I have many different interests. And so sometimes I do too much at the same time. And that is for me, where kind of anxiety can creep up? When I get very enthusiastic about something, I sometimes just go and do it. Sometimes that's good. And sometimes it's just too much. And so I did I think maybe two years ago, I said, I'm doing a podcast right now. So I just started recording an episode. But it was so spontaneous that it was only one episode. I didn't follow up anymore. And I don't want to do that again in that way. At the same time. It's also what's keeping me from actually launching a podcast because I'm not taking the time to actually sit down for it and to see how am I going to do this? And is it actually that much work as much as you know what I'm thinking about. And so, being able to do this, at least I know that the conversation itself, it doesn't need a lot of preparation. I'm not sure how it would be if I would do solo episodes. So I guess that needs a little bit more preparation. But I don't know I love to teach, I love to share and I love to talk to people. So that will be a perfect platform for me to do all those things. And I like to be you know, without rules or making up my own rules around everything. So it will be perfect.

Christine Li  42:40  
Okay, great that I want to share with you, Helen and the audience that I took four years to start a podcast. So you're right on schedule. And it I have not had a single regret since starting this. And I'll help you when we get off the record. To figure the rest out. One more question for you is, in terms of the anxiety that you might have had about podcasting or doing even this episode, what did you learn or notice about that?

Helen Kho  43:16  
I guess I'm noticing now that you asked me, I actually notice that a lot of it has to do with I want to do it. Right, like immediately. So I don't want to make mistakes. I don't want to quit while I'm you know, just starting and and so I think my anxiety comes from that just not wanting to fail in any way. And I know that that is coming up for me not just with podcasting, but but with different stuff in in my business as well. And what keeps me going is actually the reminder that I do love to be curious. And I love to learn, I love to try out new things. And so that balances out, mostly it balances out really well. Because then I don't let that fear stop me from doing it.

Christine Li  44:13  
Beautiful. So there we have it, that in the end, we have to win out over the anxiety. It's not fun when the anxiety wins out. We don't get what we want. And we don't get the new experiences and we don't get the expansion so much when anxiety is still hanging around. Yeah, bothering us and distracting us from our goals.

Helen Kho  44:35  
So I don't need to be without anxiety but just I don't want it to stop me from doing the things that I really want to do and experience the things I really want to experience. Yes, well lovely.

Christine Li  44:48  
Well, thank you Helen for being such a kind and intelligent host and comrade here in the podcast space. Welcome to the podcast space. Can you clean So tell our listeners, how they can send you a love note about this podcast episode and what worked for them about you being a host. What is your Instagram handle?

Helen Kho  45:12  
Sure, they can send me an email to That's K H O at kho Or they can find me on Instagram at Helen_Kho_Khoworks, and they can follow me there or send me a DM I would love to know.

Christine Li  45:33  
Okay. Well, everyone, we've had a wonderful experience together. I hope you enjoyed this episode. It was lovely for me, Helen. Thank you again.

Helen Kho  45:41  
Thank you, Christine. Thank you for sharing everything you shared.

Christine Li  45:45  
Okay, everyone, we'll see you next Thursday. Thanks for being here on the Make Time for Success podcast. 

Thank you for listening to this episode of the Make Time for Success podcast. If you enjoyed what you've heard, you can subscribe to make sure you get notified of upcoming episodes. You can also visit our website for past episodes, show notes and all the resources we mentioned on the show. Feel free to connect with me over on Instagram too. You can find me there under the name procrastination coach. Send me a DM and let me know what your thoughts are about the episodes you've been listening to. And let me know any topics that you might like me to talk about on the show. I'd love to hear all about how you're making time for success. Talk to you soon.

Transcribed by

Helen KhoProfile Photo

Helen Kho

Helen helps people to discover their passion and to make choices in their career and business to follow their heart. She has a master's degree in Change management but decided after 15 years of optimizing company processes and implementing new systems to transition into a career as coach and started her own business. Since then, she has helped many professionals to discover what they truly desire and help them translate that to a new career. She's a trained life coach and NLP practitioner and is passionate about personal development and helping others to make empowered choices.